@Invidia first and foremost, I really enjoy reading yours posts.

Only got round to finishing S2 of Westworld and your theory is mindblowing, albeit I would be a tad disappointed if this was the case.

I would like to think there was some part of humanity left to keep the audience connected to the story. If everyone we've already seen is a robot, it would be akin to "everything was a dream" because it never really happened to a real person, if that makes sense.

Nice to meet you too @Invidia.

Since HUMANS created the ROBOTS in their OWN IMAGE, of course a part of HUMANITY will always be a PART of what they've created.

And IF they've also DOWNLOADED HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS into them, then what you'd have is a HYBRID BEING:

HALF HUMAN/HALF ROBOT

Which also means HALF of HUMANITY is still a part of the MANUFACTURED RACE of BEINGS.

I hear what you're saying with this but ultimately they'd all still be manufactured. So all the bad things and killings done to those who deserved it - and conversely, those who didn't and you felt sad for - make it less impactful because they were never 100% real. In any case, this is all hypothetical until we know for sure what's really going on.

Anyhow, perhaps we also need to REFLECT upon what it means to be HUMAN???

Because, the SADISTIC GUESTS who visit these PARKS also don't act the way that a HUMAN BEING should behave, which, imo, also already makes them LESS THAN HUMAN (because the HUMAN part of them is already missing when they behave more like a BEAST or a MONSTER).

I think the way guests act is part of humanity. Yes, it's a sadistic side but throughtout history "humans" have always been cruel buggers. Because how should human beings act? Maybe not enjoyment of killing another real human, but I suppose you can also argue that the people who the guests "kill" aren't real (or so they are led to believe), much like in a computer game.

If humans were given free reign to knowingly kill other humans purely for their own enjoyment, then I suppose that's something else altogether. But in the case of Westworld, do we really need to reflect on such of question??

@Invidia said:

Have you ever watched STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION or STAR TREK VOYAGER?

NG has a MANUFACTURED character named DATA who is granted the same LEGAL STATUS at a TRIAL as any other HUMAN. In Voyager the same thing happens to a HOLOGRAPHIC character (the DOCTOR) who is also granted the same STATUS as other HUMANS (but they both also EARNED the right to have it and a COURT also decided that they should have it).

Yes, I know of those shows and characters but the prime difference is that we, the audience, know from the offset that Data and the Doctor aren't human, regardless of what the courts in shows say. Whereas Westworld has built two seasons of us watching "humans" so if the show suddenly says they are not human at all... I don't know, for me personally I'd be aggrieved!

Unfortunately, what you say is definitely TRUE. But don't we also have COURTS that decide that certain HUMANS who behave in certain ways or are TOO CRUEL to live among us anymore and issue DEATH PENALTIES for them???

This is getting quite deep now but you'd then have to argue which court in the world, let alone a US state, has the overall authority to decide what is too cruel. For example a dictatorship would certainly have a difference of opinion to a left wing European country.

Perhaps a COURT should also decide WHO is REAL or is NOT REAL???

And if a BEING is found to be SENTIENT and just as capable of feeling the same kind of EMOTIONAL and/or PHYSICAL PAIN as any other HUMAN does, then HUMANS shouldn't have the right to ABUSE and KILL them???

Because isn't that also the reason why we KILL other HUMAN BEINGS who behave that way towards other HUMANS that they KILL???

Again, which country would have overall authority in deciding this? The UN?? I suppose you could say it depends on what country that robot/hybrid is in at the time.

But I think in terms of Westworld, this is an area which the show shouldn't go down, purely because Dolores wants take over "our world" and it would make no sense for her to allow a "human" court to rule on this (surely for impartiality there needs to be a least one robot/hybrid on any jury??). In all seriousness, the film Moon touched on this with a clone being judged if they should be real or not, and while it's an interesting subject, it shouldn't be dealt with in Westworld.

Ever see BLADE RUNNER or the more RECENT film called BLADE RUNNER 2049???

Ah yes, now I remember that's where I've seen your posts before. It helped me understand and think about things a lot from BR 2049, thank you!

And aren't HUMANS themselves also suppose to have been MANUFACTURED by another BEING or BEINGS as well???

Because we have stories that tell us we were created in the IMAGE of another BEING who makes us in THEIR IMAGE???

And the ANCIENT GREEKS also have other stories where other BEINGS created us???

So in that sense we'd also be MANUFACTURED BEINGS as well???

And the STUDY of SCIENCE also indicates we were CREATED from the remains left over from STAR that went SUPERNOVA (which also means we were all just a bunch of NUCLEAR WASTE at one time).

Which also leads to the creation of this pretty song which also REFLECTS upon what it means to be HUMAN:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=cRjQCvfcXn0

We are STARDUST

We are GOLDEN

BILLION YEAR OLD CARBON

Caught in the DEVIL's BARGAIN

And we've got to get ourselves

Back to the GARDEN

So the answer is YES, since we've also already been REFLECTING upon what it means to BE HUMAN for quite some time, we probably also need to CONTINUE the process ... especially if we want to REMAIN that way ... and not become BEINGS that are LESS than HUMAN (such as also appeared to be the case during WW2 when HUMANS (including CHILDREN) were also ritually being put to DEATH for NO GOOD REASON)???

This is VERY deep now! But I think what should be taken into consideration is the question, what makes us human? And I think its both the good AND bad sides of us.

So our actions are not what makes us more or less human, but rather what makes us a "better" (good) or "worse" (bad) human. Because humanity is not one without the other.

2049 is a MEDITATION on what it means to be HUMAN, and in that story we also have BOTH MANUFACTURED HUMANS and HOLOGRAPHIC HUMANS behaving MORE HUMAN than the HUMANS DO.

To me one must define being human first - and is that purely only the good things we do to one another?

@Invidia said:

Is it??? How is it different when the BEINGS they KILL FEEL the same way as any other HUMAN does???

What exactly is it that makes DOLORES LESS than HUMAN???

What precisely have we seen to indicate she's any LESS HUMAN than we HUMANS???

Sorry, I forgot to address this part of your response. I guess this is something I didn't consider IN REAL LIFE because its a valid argument. Although I'm sure this is what the Westworld creators would like us, the audience, to consider.

But in terms of the guests that pay to go to Westworld, are they aware that the hosts feel exactly as humans do? I don't believe they are. How would the guests know otherwise if all they're told is that the hosts are robots?

@Invidia said:

@cpheonix said:

Yes, I know of those shows and characters but the prime difference is that we, the audience, know from the offset that Data and the Doctor aren't human, regardless of what the courts in shows say. Whereas Westworld has built two seasons of us watching "humans" so if the show suddenly says they are not human at all... I don't know, for me personally I'd be aggrieved!

Why would you feel that way??? Is it because you feel giving someone EQUAL STATUS would DEFLATE your STATUS in some way??? Make you LESS SUPERIOR in some way???

That's the kind of QUESTIONS we need to ask ourselves. Why we feel the need to MARGINALIZE others and keep them INFERIOR to us.

Haha, I don't know if you're joking or not, but it's certainly not about feeling more or less superior to anyone, let alone robot characters!

If it was revealed that the humans were really robots...a lot of the conflicts wouldnt make sense between the "known" robots and the "we thought were human" robots. Anyway, it's still an interesting theory and however it plays out I'll still be watching

But I think in terms of Westworld, this is an area which the show shouldn't go down, purely because Dolores wants take over "our world" and it would make no sense for her to allow a "human" court to rule on this (surely for impartiality there needs to be a least one robot/hybrid on any jury??). In all seriousness, the film Moon touched on this with a clone being judged if they should be real or not, and while it's an interesting subject, it shouldn't be dealt with in Westworld.

Wasn't it sort of already addressed in the scene where the ASIANS tried to deal with the ROBOT UPRISING before the other guy who'd been HIRED to deal with it took over and told the ASIAN guy why he would handle it???

So we've also already gotten into the POLITICS of it in that scene.

I'm trying to remember this but can't. But if they have addressed it already, I hope it doesn't end up like a courtroom drama!

Since we EXECUTE those who behave BADLY or so BADLY we conclude they no longer deserve to be HUMAN anymore, perhaps that's also a good place to start with our definition of what being HUMAN means???

Only some countries/states execute those who behave badly. Which one has the final say in what it is to be human? We can't say what the UK deems as being human would be the same as China.

And even then I don't think that's a good indicator because:

1) Wouldn't those that do or order the executing is, in turn, just as inhumane? And 2) Some executions are for things like espionage and treason, which in my mind are hardly evil things.

And I have to disagree that we execute people because they no longer deserve to be human. We execute them for being extremely evil humans and to protect other humans from them. Furthermore, with countries where the death penalty is outlawed, prison is seen as rehabilitation.

Ultimately, these people - whether they deserve to be executed or not - are still humans, no matter how flawed.

Since they show us the scenes where William's FATHER in LAW becomes a MANUFACTURED HUMAN/HYBIRD BEING (who rejects the ROBOT BODY), perhaps it's not that far fetched to consider the reason why he keeps doing that???

And MAYBE it's because of the way he FELT SUPERIOR to them prior to his DEATH, which also prevents him from being able to accept that he is ONE of them once his MEMORIES are DOWNLOADED into ROBOT body???

On the other hand, we have WILLIAM who was also more SYMPATHETIC to them, who might also be able to make the TRANSITION to his being a HYBRID BEING???

The iterations of Delos and the longevity of the trials were very interesting. But he did seem to accept he was a robot, he only flipped out when he was told he wasn't allowed out.

The problem is the way FORD would have the MEMORIES of the ROBOTS ERASED each night (which prevented them from being able to REMEMBER the ABUSE). But IF that wasn't being done to them, then of course the GUESTS would also never be able to ABUSE them in the first place.

Since LOGAN and his father were also there as GUEST in WESTWORLD of course they also KNEW the ROBOTS had feelings (whether they wanted to admit it or not). William's daughter was also AWARE of that as well and she was also a GUEST. And LOGAN'S sister was also a GUEST.

So the answer is YES, some of the GUEST were also AWARE that the HOSTS feel the same way as HUMANS do.

FELIX who worked on MAEVE was also AWARE of it as well.

Yet no one (except for BERN) does anything to try to STOP the ABUSE of them???

But did they know to what extent the hosts could feel? I'm sure Logan did, and William later on, but in general they were just robots to the guests and that's all that mattered. I get the attraction of Westworld was that guests could get away literally with murder but I don't believe that people (in real life) are inheritantly sadistic like that to take pleasure on inflicting pain and death. I believe its just the experience killing (or having sex/general debauchery) without consequence.

Going back to the computer game example; if you were told that in a computer game you were playing, such as Call of Duty, the bots could feel human pain, would you believe that? Would that make you stop?? I know it's not the same in a sense that Westworld was a tangible experience but surely in essence it is the same - the guests/players get the experience to kill without it being "real"??

@Invidia said:

But isn't that also the point they're making in the story??? That the ROBOTS are SUPERIOR to HUMANS??? Because they DON'T DIE, or can be RESURRECTED again IF they do die. And they are also PHYSICALLY STRONGER than HUMANS, etc???

Yes, but that means they still aren't human and wasn't the argument about whether or not Robots are human??

Remember how DOLORES also got shot with a GUN several times in the shoulder area, but still kept on walking forwards without stopping as she tried to stop them from taking her father???

Yes, I was thinking how is it that she's the only one who was able to continue walking forward after being shot. This happened twice from memory; the first time from Charlotte when they took her dad (as you said - although she did seem hurt) and second by the man in black but she just kept coming forward. What's your theory on why it was only her who could withstand multiple gunshots?

Didn't BERN also believe he was HUMAN only to discover he wasn't anymore? So WHY would it be far fetched if we were to also discover other characters who also assumed they were human were not anymore???

This is true, HE did. But as a character, once it was revealed he was no longer human, I (as a viewer) no longer feared for him (whether he lived or died) because he was a robot. I guess that's what it boils down to; should they reveal EVERYONE is a hybrid/robot, the writers can bring them back anytime. There's no sense of danger for them, if that makes sense.

IF the reason why Will's father in law can't make the TRANSITION from being HUMAN to being a HYBRID is because his mind that feels it's SUPERIOR to a ROBOT can't accept being inside of one, then that could also explain the reason why they wouldn't let other HYBRIDS know what they were.

Because their minds might also REJECT what they were the same way as he did.

Yes, this is an interesting idea but at no point did I feel he rejected the idea of his consciousness being in a robot. Unless I missed a bit of dialogue. If anything, as a power-monger, he would've embraced the robot body - live forever, no illnesses and most likely stronger than he ever was as a human.

But IF we discover that the WORLD where BERN builds his house is also another PARK (maybe called FUTURE WORLD), then there'd also be NO NEED or REASON to have a COURT …

unless one were used as a way to DECLARE HYBRIDS SUPERIOR to NON HYBRID beings???

Which would also place the situation right back to the way it was BEFORE when HUMANS considered themselves to BE SUPERIOR to the ROBOTS.

And right BEFORE we see DOLORES walking across the STREET to BERN'S HOUSE we also see the place of business with a SIGN on it that indicates it's a SIGN POST for indicating where one is located inside of a PARK setting.

Again, I never thought this deep but you certainly make a great argument. Looking back on the last scene when Bernard exists the house, he smiles but we never see the "outside". So it could indeed be another park. I think this idea would be better because it keeps it to the confines of what Westworld is about (the park itself).

But what IF DOLORES is also a HYBRID because FORD DOWNLODES her with the MEMORIES or PERSONALITY of the WOMAN in the WHITE SHOES who took all the MONEY and drank all BOOZE???

Then that could also mean at least some (if not all ) of the ROBOTS would also be HYBRIDS as well.

But didn't Westworld have writers (like Simon) to flesh out every bit of dialogue for EVERY host, so there was no way they could've had downloaded consciousness (unless they were in on knowing some robots were hybrids)? Remember the Japan bit, all the hosts were recycled. So apart from Bernard, I don't see how anyone else could be hybrid.

REMEMBER how the HEAD of SECURITY walks up to the ASIAN soldier and tells him he's the one in control because they have a CONTRACT that says so??? Then the ASIAN SOLDIERS get back into their crafts and leave.

Go to the 3:06 TIME MARK and you can see the scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMWzFGWqPTE

Ah OK, I remember now, thanks. but I always took this scene as just a hierarchy of who has governance in law enforcement there, kinda like the FBI or CIA. It wasn't necessarily anything to do with the politics of whether or not the robots are to be treated as humans...or have we got our wires crossed??

And we also see this Karl STRAND order one of the soldiers to OPEN UP or saw OFF the TOP PART of one of the NATIVE AMERICAN ROBOT'S HEADS and PLAY the RECORDING of what happened to him. Then we also see DOLORES standing there HOLDING a GUN and SHOOTING him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=167&v=pSzbE84z9hU

And that also means the ROBOTS would have the ADVANTAGE over HUMANS in a COURT of LAW (if things ever got that far) due to the way they've also RECORDED things that they've done to them (including whenever they MURDER them).

So for that reason one would also assume MOST CASES would be settled OUT of COURT or before things ever reached the JURY stage of litigation.

This is true but it all depends if it gets that far like you say, and whether robots can ever bring cases against humans. But again, this to me is not really something for Westworld. There's a TV show called Electric Dreams based on stories by Philip K Dick and one of the episodes featured Bryan Cranston, have you seen it? Basically it's pretty much the same thing as this part of our discussion here; a court deciding if an alien is "human".

And then there's also the other situation where William's wife watches the RECORDINGS of the things he's done in the PARK, and instead of taking him to court or DIVORCING him, she KILLS HERSELF as a way to get out of the marriage.

I really think this scene was meant to show how disturbed William's wife was with what she saw and how she knowingly stayed ignorant to what he was up to in the park all these years. And she killed herself because she had lived with an evil man all this time.

WHAT IF this entire thing is also another STORY that's been WRITTEN b y FORD as a way to ENTERTAIN the GUESTS and KARL STRAND is also a HOST???

As you may also recall, FORD also REJECTS the other STORY that the other WRITER submits, and says he was WRITING one himself.

And at the party, we also see the GUEST watching a PERFORMANCE of it there on the BEACH (where it ends when TEDDY holds DOLORES in his arms as she DIED).

So could this WHOLE THING we've seen happening in S2 also be still another STORY that FORD's written as a way to ENTERTAIN the GUESTS (who were also getting BORED with the other stories they had to CHOSE from)???

So are you saying the audience is behind the scenes somewhere? What about those dinner guests killed along with Ford, would they be hosts too??

And I have to disagree that we execute people because they no longer deserve to be human. We execute them for being extremely evil humans and to protect other humans from them.

Yes, but when we EXECUTE THEM they also cease to be HUMAN at that point.

Well, technically that's true but more so they'd cease to EXIST at that point - I know its semantics but at the end of the day, the world would be rid of them regardless of the reasons.

Furthermore, with countries where the death penalty is outlawed, prison is seen as rehabilitation.

But STUDIES also indicate that certain types of CRIMINALS also CAN'T be REHABILITATED.

Yes, studies may show that but that doesn't (and shouldn't) stop society from trying.

The iterations of Delos and the longevity of the trials were very interesting. But he did seem to accept he was a robot, he only flipped out when he was told he wasn't allowed out.

It seems as if his PAST BEHAVIOR also plays a part in it. And IF he hadn't been such a SADISTIC PRICK, then maybe the TRANSITION would have worked???

But that's a different reason to him feeling SUPERIOR to robots. Are you saying now he possibly couldn't transition because he was a nasty person??

Because still other EXPERIMENTS ( like the MILLGRAM experiment) also indicate I'm not the type of personality that can be talked into doing something ... even IF someone were to use manipulative measures as a way to try to get one to do something that they didn't want to do.

In other words, even killing MAKE BELIEVE computer CHARACTERS wouldn't be my CUP of TEA.

So this is true for you because in general this isn't your thing, but for the majority of people they can separate out killing make believe characters and real people (except for a few who blame video games for their acts of violence). So it goes back to my point that a lot of people who went to Westworld saw the robots as just robots. Yes, maybe they were aware they felt pain etc. but to them they were robots who could be brought back to life. Whatever you say about humans, this can never happen (100% brought back to life).

ON the other hand, IF one were to play a GAME where my MOTHER and FATHER had been REPEATEDLY MURDERED over and over again by the GUEST, then perhaps I'd feel just as ANGRY as DOLORES ends up being and resort to seeking REVENGE and to tormenting the GUESTS the same way as she did ???

But that's different, Dolores is a host and her dad was just too. Before she became aware, she was just a character , part of story. You, as a guest, would never see your parents repeatedly murdered!

Or resort to seeking a way to ESCAPE from the PARK the way we see MAEVE doing once she discovers she's NOTHING more than a SLAVE and PLAYTHING of the GUESTS who visit it and PAY a FEE to PLAY with her as if she were NOTHING more than a TOY???

Again, yes, if I were a host who became aware, of course this would be the case! I'm saying from the point of view of guests BELIEVING that everything is a story and all hosts are robots i.e. not human...

@Invidia said:

No haven't see the ED series. What channel is it on? We may not get it here, because we also don't get the new ST series called DISCOVERY EITHER.

Isn't ST: Discovery on Netflix? What country are you in?

Electric Dreams is a UK/US production on Channel 4 in the UK. It was meant to be a replacement for Black Mirror which Netflix bought the rights to. IMO the show is average but because of the source material its still interesting. If you're not based in the UK I'm not sure where you could watch it (maybe YouTube).

Furthermore, with countries where the death penalty is outlawed, prison is seen as rehabilitation.

But STUDIES also indicate that certain types of CRIMINALS also CAN'T be REHABILITATED.

Yes, studies may show that but that doesn't (and shouldn't) stop society from trying.

If you watched the SOPRANOS do you recall how near the end of that series the SHRINK who was treating him is given DATA by her BOSS that explains how trying to HELP PSYCHOPATHS like TONY only makes them MORE DEVIOUS and DANGEROUS??? After that his THERAPIST also refused to see him anymore, because she also knew what she was doing wasn't working.

That may be the case what the WRITERS of the Sopranos thought but remember that is also a TV show and there's no conclusive evidence to back that. I don't think society should base its treatment of criminals on this criteria because it would mean no one would get a second chance. Maybe if they were formally assessed and recognised as a psychopath, then yes, I could see that perhaps they would be beyond help. But isn't that why mental institutions exist??

In other words, if HUMANS no longer exist anymore, then MAYBE all the ROBOT/HYBRID SOCIETY can do is go around in NEVER ENDING LOOPS doing the same things over and over without anyone left to write NEW NARRATIVES or STORIES or POEMS or PLAYS for them.

I've never would have thought this but it's certainly a possibility now that you've laid it out! But that would mean everything we've seen already is a loop and all the characters and their actions have been written? Like the whole experiments on Delos, going through the whole utopian dimension etc??

Apologies I have been unable to address all points.

@Invidia said:

The US. Other posters in EUROPE say it either is or soon will be available for them on NETFLIX soon, but someone in the US said it isn't on NETFLIX here yet.

I think we've had ST: Discovery on NETFLIX for a while now, very strange that it's not available in the US. I personally don't watch it but from what I'm told it's very good.

Electric Dreams is a UK/US production on Channel 4 in the UK. It was meant to be a replacement for Black Mirror which Netflix bought the rights to. IMO the show is average but because of the source material its still interesting. If you're not based in the UK I'm not sure where you could watch it (maybe YouTube).

Or maybe it's not available here at all. This stuff gets confusing.

This is a shame because while it's not as good as other Sci-Fi shows, it does have some good moments and well known stars such as Greg Kinnear and Steve Buscemi.

Perhaps FORD would be a HUMAN, but the question is did he really DIE when DOLORES shot him in the HEAD or was that a FAKE FORD COPY of that body we saw laying there. Since in the OPENING scene on the BEACH they say it's been 2 WEEKS since the PARTY took place where he died, and the BODY hasn't DECOMPOSED very much (the way a HUMAN BODY would if it laid there for 2 WEEKS), that also makes one suspect FORD is still alive or could also be a HYBRID.

And it's also CURIOUS how the scene where DOLORES shot him in the BACK of the HEAD also MATCHES or PARALLELS the other one where we see her SHOOT BERN in the back of the head. So could that also indicate FORD's NARRATIVE is also a REHASH of the other one??? But this one is also done on a LARGER SCALE than the other one was where BERN DIES???

I never really thought about Ford's body decomposing, maybe it was just an error on the production team/writers of the show?? Although nothing seems by accident, quite a lot of attention to detail so you may just be right...

Still another CURIOUS thing to PONDER is WHY they've created MECHANICAL BUZZARDS. Their function is suppose to EAT DEAD THINGS, but do MECHANICAL BUZZARDS eat the DEAD BODIES of HUMANS or ROBOTS???

Isn't this just part of Westworld that everything is a robot? Because wouldn't it be harder to maintain them if they were real, as well as not being true to the essence of Westworld if they weren't mechanical?

And still another thing to NOTE is the ROUND TURNTABLE or RECORD PLAYER (that's also doing LOOPS like the PLAYER PIANO), and WILL's Father in LAW is also doing LOOPS on the STATIONARY BIKE that he's working out on. And the ROOM itself is also ROUND as well. Plus we also see that character doing REPEATED LOOPS (like DOLORES does with the CAN of MILK) each time another NEW COPY is made of him again.

What's also interesting to NOTE is how there are also several other ROUND ROOMS located there in the area where we see Logan's father located.

So WHY so would the need so many other ROUND ROOMS and WHO else has been in them???

You've been really observant and analysed this quite in depth - I would've never have clocked on those things. Thanks for pointing that out - gives me a reason to watch S2 all over again

and we also see WILLIAM ORDER the TECHNITION to BURN UP the ENTIRE ROOM with his FATHER in LAW still in it which also gives one the impression of a HELL like setting.

And Later on instead of BURNING HIM UP he also leaves him to SLOWLY DECAY and ROT AWAY (which may also be an even worse FATE to encounter)???

After ELSE and BERN find him in his completely PSYCHO state, he's also finally put out of his MISERY.

Also Wonder what would have happened to him if they didn't find him???

Don't the robots still need maintenance, so while not food and water, they still need regular dosage of fluids of some sort? I guess they never really showed how long had elapsed from when William told the technician to leave his Delos to rot to when Bernard and Elsie found him.

Also, how did the technician die??

Also wonder what's the daughter of the MAN in BLACK is going to do to him now that's he's the one who is inside of a ROUND ROOM???

I wonder if the daughter's consciousness has been implanted into her robot self?? In accordance to what you know of the show, would it be possible to obtain the consciousness a long time after death?

Apologies I have been unable to address all points.

No problem. One is just happy to have anyone at all to discuss the show with. And to have any time that you can spare to do so.

So thank you for your efforts and for your input here.

My pleasure but it is I who should be thanking you for taking the time to respond and give such detailed responses - so thank you. I really missed the IMDB boards so this place has been great. Appreciate you being around to chat to